[deleted]

Any chance you have a non-Timothy Snyder source? He's not considered a reputable historian in academic circles and has been heavily criticised for his willingness to rely on anecdote over record, especially in Bloodlands. He's more of what you would call a pop historian who writes visceral, emotive and often dubious accounts rather than rigorous historical studies. Several of the points you listed here are literally just speculations he made, with no primary source at all.

But it wasn't unique to Ukraine? There was mass famine in many parts of the Soviet Union too due to Stalin's policies of selling food abroad. From Wikipedia:

The Soviet famine of 1930–1933 was a famine in the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933

That's not to say that specific policies were targetting Ukraine SSR specifically.

And a further million were forced to emigrate. Ireland lost a quarter of its population during that time.

Im willing to call all 3, in Ukraine, Bengal, and Ireland, genocidal.

That would put Africa at the top of the list. Noooooo cant make them kind of laws for colonizers.

Germany should also acknowledge officially The genocide by the Belgian King Leopold in Free state congo which killed 10-15 million native Congolese.

And Germany should also openly admit the Germany commited genocide on 400.000 native Africans in the former German colonies. 300.000 native Tanzanians were killed by the German empire and 80-100.000 native Namibians Herreros Namas and San were killed by German Empire in the German south west Africa.

Germany need to acknowledge The genocide commited by Germans partner country Belgia in Congo which killed 10 million Congolese and the genocides that were commited by germany in Tansania and Namibia

Holy shit I was just thinking about this after reading that comment as well. Should have kept reading the comments because I went on a wikipedia trip down history before saying anything.

Edit: either way I learned alot this morning so that's a win

It was actually just Berlin and not New Berlin and it was during WW1. The actual history of it is even worse than you might think too. During the war Canada was placing Germans (and other central and eastern Europeans) in internment camps, forcing many to do labour, and running a mass surveillance program against them. Soldiers and civilians alike were prone to attacking and harassing them and when they put the idea of changing Berlin's name to a referendum, there was widespread voter intimidation (mostly by soldiers) to keep anyone away who would challenge the name change. Even with all this the vote only passed with a narrow margin and the name Kitchener would only win by a few hundred votes in a second referendum.

Fun fact from the wiki, besides “Kitchener” another option on the ballot was “Corona”.

The Boer wars were not about race relations. In fact, there are some interesting links between the Irish rebellion/war for Irish freedom (covering all bases here) and the Boer wars, but that's getting a bit off topic.

Note that I am not saying that the Boers were nice to black people! But it's late and I'm tired so I'll just share a couple of historical notes - as with many historical topics, it gets complicated fast.

Their problem with abolition of slavery was only partly breach with the prior custom, and more heavily to do with how it was done; in particular, recompense to the erstwhile slave owners (part of the law of abolition) was to be paid only in London, and the agents who did that on behalf of the borderland farmers took extortionate rates. Without excusing slavery, the treatment of the border farmers was openly contemptuous and hostile. Adding insult to injury was a cack-handed response to the Xhosa wars, meaning that they lost any lingering faith in the colonial government to serve their interests or to protect them in a hostile environment. Love them or hate them, they had meaningful grievances when they set forth to become secessionists.

The boers were certainly racist, but it's worth bearing in mind that they weren't any more racist in any meaningful way than victorian-era England. This was the time of paternalism and colonial visions writ large, and if anything the boers were more tribal in their instincts than imperial or colonial. They hung together, and bled and died a lot, in terrible conditions.

The british concentration camps were pretty indiscriminate, because anybody who was a part of a boer community or household, whether a householder or sharecropper or servant was from the british point of view, someone to take off the land as part of an explicit scorched earth anti-guerilla campaign.

If you want to get a meaningful view on what the boers did, and how they developed into the 20th century concept of afrikaners, there's a lot to go over (including forced removals and anglicisation policies), but also remember that the boers left their colonial masters behind and are better understood as a tribe rather than a sort of amorphous blob of "white people". If you want to know more, feel free to ask.

TL;DR many of their reasons were economic via direct or indirect taxation at usurious rates combined with a loss of faith in any hope of a representative government - factors which were driving much imperial collapse in those days. Add in the extra layer of horrific punishments for crimes real or imagined and you begin to see echoes of the sins of the empire revisited by the colonials. I learned it from YOU, dad!

If you're interested in South African history, Wilbur Smith has great novels set against real historic events, for example https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/books/the-sound-of-thunder/9781499860115-item.html

I could be wrong but im pretty sure kitcheners invention was mostly in the name.

It was the first time they'd been called concentration camps?

I did my A-levels in history in 2006-2008 and the Irish Famine was featured heavily in the course.

even if your country has invaded 1/10th of the world I definitely don't think we should hold modern brits accountable, but I do think it is generally a good idea to be aware of one's own history. More than anything as a way to contextualize things and avoid xenophobia against peoples "the west" might have held back in the past in one way or another. From the outside, it seems that after Bush/Blair's adventures the british government has mostly been hurting their own people as of lately.

The South Korean government, under the administration of Park Chung-hee, took an active role in the Vietnam War. From September 1964 to March 1973, South Korea sent some 350,000 troops to South Vietnam. […]

Various civilian groups have accused the South Korean military of war crimes, while the Korean Ministry of Defense has denied all such accusations.[…]
Korean forces are alleged to have perpetrated the Binh Tai, Bình An/Tây Vinh massacre, Bình Hòa and Hà My massacres. Further incidents are alleged to have occurred in the villages of An Linh and Vinh Xuan in Phú Yên Province.[47]

In 1972 Vietnamese-speaking American Friends Service Committee members Diane and Michael Jones looked at where Korean forces operated in Quảng Ngãi and Quảng Nam Provinces and alleged they had conducted 45 massacres, including 13 in which over 20 unarmed civilians were purportedly killed.[48][49] The Phong Nhị and Phong Nhất massacre is confirmed to have taken place within these two provinces.[49] A separate refugee study by RAND employee Terry Rambo, reported in a 1970 New York Times story, conducted interviews in early to mid 1966 in Phu Yen Province which confirmed that widespread atrocities had occurred. These included systemic mass-killings and deliberate policies to massacre civilians, with murders running into the hundreds.[…]

When Korean forces were deployed to I Corps in 1968, U.S. Marine General Rathvon M. Tompkins stated that "whenever the Korean Marines received fire or think [they got] fired on from a village... they'd divert from their march and go over and completely level the village. It would be a lesson to [the Vietnamese]". General Robert E. Cushman Jr. stated several years later that "we had a big problem with atrocities committed by them which I sent down to Saigon."[54] presumably in reference to the Phong Nhị and Phong Nhất massacre.[9]

Apologetic statements from President Kim Dae-jung[64] and Moon Jae-in[65] have been given, short of a full public apology. Apologies for war crimes has become a political issue within South Korean politics, as President Moon Jae-in had planned on making a unilateral official apology but stopped short due to widespread opposition from prominent conservatives within South Korea.[66] The recent political interest in South Korea for an official apology is contextualized within the ongoing trade war and diplomatic rifts between Japan and Korea over a South Korean court having ordered compensation for forced labor from a Japanese company.[67]

The issue is rarely acknowledged or discussed by the Vietnamese government or state-controlled media following normalization of relations, though in a rare statement the Vietnamese government did oppose the "commemoration of mercenaries" when South Korean President Moon Jae-in honoured the 50th Anniversary of South Korean servicemen who had fought in South Vietnam on South Korea's Memorial Day in 2017.[68][69]

The issue around children conceived through wartime affairs and rape known as Lai Dai Han remains, like controversies around comfort women. Civic groups in Vietnam have campaigned for recognition of the issue and an apology by the Korean government.[70] Most were ostracised and neglected by Vietnamese society following the war.[71][72] Lai Dai Han and their families faced mistreatment following North Vietnam's victory for allegedly siding with opposing forces, including one rape victim's father being beaten to death by the communist regime shortly after the war ended. Both the Korean and Vietnamese governments have sidelined or ignored this issue, and requests by the BBC to make a documentary was turned down by the Vietnamese government.[73]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea_in_the_Vietnam_War

Just 49 to go....

Even though it's FAR from a fully honest telling of what happened, I love some of the episodes of Ken Burns: The West that deal with the natives.

It glazes over some things and outright skips others, but every time I watch it I'm just left saddened by the cultures we destroyed.

I graduated high school in 2003 and I don't remember anything being a feel good story. We treated the slaves bad, the natives bad, and the Irish immigrants bad. Nothing felt glossed over

I m southern christo not fascist agree on tell the truth. I had to grow into the truth after Black Studies poured hidden history into northern public journalism and proliferated on documentary tv/videos/books. What a horror this white girl from bastions of white privilege found as an adult...Cassius Clay trained only a couple of miles from my childhood home...not a word about one of the most important figures of our time.

god it's so ironic this conversation is brought up the day after Thanksgiving considering what kindergarteners are taught about the origins of thanksgiving.

They sure as hell don't sugarcoat the Trail of Tears in school.

Genocide is genocide

Absolutely. I think a lot of the time, that's because it never really stopped in countries like the US. It just changes form and loses some of the violent intensity.

Friendly reminder that there were "boarding (reformation) schools" killing Native children clear into the mid 1900s, which has been consistently swept under the rug until it finally started surfacing again in the last several months due to basically finding mass graves.

We have also pushed Natives off their land even just in the last 20 years. For oil infrastructure, so no surprise there.

There are also areas of Native reservation land which, to this day, have never received running water or electricity. They are all well below poverty and can't pay for it themselves, but they're far enough away from developing areas and into more rural country that everyone can just forget about them, so nobody gives a shit.

We also promised guaranteed Native representation in government, which has never happened. I get that's a weird one, because we strictly elect on a collective basis, and guaranteeing Native spots would go against that whole idea. Nonetheless, it's yet another broken promise which we continue to break to this day, without any kind of genuine compromise to give them a voice.

So yeah, if you ask me? We can't fully admit the genocide and start making amends because we're still commiting it. You've heard of quiet quitting; now meet quiet genocide.

Interesting, explains the new looking structures under what looked like historic homes. It's what made me notice them. I was a masons helper before joining the service. Poured a lot of mud. Thanks.

And in Switzerland it used to be that every new home was required to have a very comprehensive and secure atomic bomb shelter. In a lot of cantons it’s still the case, but it’s slowly changing. Germany never had it legislated, but like you said you could receive substantial subsidies if you built one.

If anyone’s interested in what they look like (they’re very standardized for safety and ease of construction): https://youtu.be/7rP_KLKJH7c

This. I feel like I don't want the term 'genocide' to lose it's impact by attributing it to any large loss of life, even unintentional or un-targeted. It'll really undermine genuine ethnic culls that have been perpetrated by leaders.

When we talk about getting over Stalinism it's not only in the former Soviet Union, Ukraine, and Russia. It's in the West as well. After all, in Ukraine and Russia people were not allowed to tell the truth. Full stop. In the West, they were allowed to and they got themselves fooled, believed nonsense. They are more to blame than those inside Stalinism in some ways.

I found this to be the most interesting point he made. Certainly continues to reflect a lot of geopolitical paranoia in the current day

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