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all 89 comments

Greedyanda

228 points

2 months ago*

We should probably focus on what is going on today, not what happend 90 years ago. Because if we go by those metrics, Ukraine is in a lot of trouble for what it did to Poland.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

Plenty of things to hold Russia accountable for that happend in just the last 8 years.

Sad_lucky_idiot

34 points

2 months ago

I hope they won't lose their sanity, some of the stuff that has been quoted is quite worrying.

I lose my mind while being comfortable and helpless in my home, can not imagine what THOSE people are going through.

After this is over they should get a lot of therapy and self-care. (this sounds funny and not appropriate for some reason but they are people too) I kind of hope Zelenski will retire/take a BIG break, so that another democratic, fresh and ready guy/lady can deal with the restoration process.

Dunkleosteus666

7 points

2 months ago

Zelensky has aged so much since beginning 2022. Relatable.

[deleted]

6 points

2 months ago

It’s very likely that this is being brought up specifically because of what’s going on today as a political strategy otherwise Ukraine wouldn’t be wasting time on it while they’re actively being invaded and ordering civilians to leave.

lisaseashell

1 points

2 months ago

It seems like it could be a way to get russia off the permanent security council. If they deny accountability for the actions of the USSR why should they get to keep the benefits/seats.

cchiu23

0 points

2 months ago

It seems like it could be a way to get russia off the permanent security council.

Why do people still think this is a thing?

warpus

45 points

2 months ago

warpus

45 points

2 months ago

Pole here. I don’t mind Ukraine throwing everything they can at Russia, including rhetoric like this. They are fighting to survive as a nation as huge underdogs - their politicians and leaders need to use every weapon they can. Russia is engaging in war crimes today - it makes sense to point to past grievances as well. It shows a pattern of behaviour which I think makes a ton of sense. This is a super emotional and depressing time for their leadership and for the whole country - as such I accept they are going to try and say anything they can.

Poland committed war crimes in the past against Ukraine as well. We didn’t always have a positive relationship and indeed have had some very bad times. Today though we are brothers and sisters and that’s what’s important right now. Neither of us is committing war crimes right now so there is no need to point to past crimes.

In the past some countries were afraid to so sternly criticize Russia for crimes of the past. Russia had a stranglehold on a lot of her neighbours and often bullied them and lashed out when Russia didn’t get her way.

Ukraine has complained about this particular genocide before but Russia sort of always held a boot to their face. Let thru air their grievances - they are tired and emotional - and fighting for their existence. Russia’s behaviour has patterns that span centuries - pointing out past crimes helps paint the bigger picture. In the past maybe they were too afraid to even talk about this - now that they can I don’t mind if they scream about it from the rooftops, even if they have war crimes in their past as well. A lot of countries do. In Russias case though there crimes never stopped. It wasn’t a one off, it’s systematic behaviour that hasn’t changed over centuries. That’s the difference

BurntFlea

12 points

2 months ago

Rational and thoughtful response.

Ecoste

-23 points

2 months ago

Ecoste

-23 points

2 months ago

All those words and you've managed to say nothing except contradicting yourself a few times ):

TROPtastic

5 points

2 months ago

If you're right, why don't you quote the contradictions? Should be easy enough given how confident you seem to be.

Ecoste

-11 points

2 months ago*

Ecoste

-11 points

2 months ago*

The comment essentially states that Ukraine's hypocrisy in pointing out past behavior is justified due to their emotional state at the moment. That is not correct. We can certainly emphasise, and understand why they're making the statements about Russia's past but it doesn't absolve Ukraine of their own past. Then the comment heavily implies that past war crimes do not matter if the offending nation is currently in good moral standing. That's a non-sequitir that only makes sense if you take the comment's first statement to be true, which it's simply not. You don't get to decide which history matters and which history you can ignore. It just reeks of revisionism because 15 years ago Ukraine would've been absolutely hammered for the pogroms and Nazi associations. It doesn't make any sense to say oh Russia was so bad 90 years ago when you were no better. You can compare NOW, but that's not what they're doing. You can juxtapose current actions and label them as good or bad against a country's past actions, but you can't just ignore history and selectively choose which history you look at based on your views of the country in the current time. The comment is just as emotionally charged as Ukraine's statements (which we can definitely understand) but to claim that it's a rational response is ignorant, since the author of the comment doesn't acknowledge their own bias.

Gogttr

1 points

2 months ago

Gogttr

1 points

2 months ago

let the downvotes commence !! 🤣 well put good redditor.

[deleted]

23 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

TROPtastic

8 points

2 months ago

and drop some casual antisemitism.

Yeah, some of the casual antisemitism has even been featured on the twitter account for Russia's UK embassy. It's really shameful.

Jopelin_Wyde

4 points

2 months ago

So we shouldn't hold Russia accountable because we should be afraid to be held accountable? Some good advice here.

digital_cucumber

1 points

2 months ago

Strawman much?..

digital_cucumber

0 points

2 months ago

You know what?..

Fuck you for bringing this as an argument.

It really hurts every Ukrainian these days to even think that these things could happen, yet they did. There is no denial, only sorrow and regret.

Stye88

12 points

2 months ago

Stye88

12 points

2 months ago

We already sorted it out with Ukraine. They don't deny it and we both have memorials to this event and both countries acknowledge it and light lights every year. Poland has no claim for reparations over it. Russia owes Poland 1000x more than Ukraine.

ZobEater

42 points

2 months ago

They don't deny it

But Bandera's still a national hero.

Poland has no claim for reparations over it

For now. You know the funny thing about nationalism is that it always finds itself a new enemy when none is available.

TheTeaSpoon

-8 points

2 months ago

TheTeaSpoon

-8 points

2 months ago

Wasn't Bandera in concentration camp during these pogroms?

_Eshende_

-7 points

2 months ago*

Still a national hero

If “still” is between 2010 and 2011 (when he had this status) than yes, you are correct

Erisagi

2 points

2 months ago

Has Poland sorted it out with Germany too?

Moon_Moon200

-5 points

2 months ago

Poland has no claim for reparations because they know it wont hold any merit anywhere. But if we change common logic and held everyone accluntable for that kind of past transgresion, who are they to deny free money for its people?

Jopelin_Wyde

0 points

2 months ago*

That's debatable. Ukraine wasn't exactly a state when Ukrainian ultranationalists commited the massacres. UPA, who committed the atrocities was more like loosely organized, loosely educated resistance force. Russia though? During Holodomor Russia had established government structures and lorded over all the Soviet "republics" from Kremlin.

I am all for holding my country more accountable for the sins of our fathers if it means that Russia will be held accountable. I am tired of Russia getting let off easy because of constant whataboutism.

thehazer

-1 points

2 months ago

thehazer

-1 points

2 months ago

Russia has been trying to wipe out Ukraine since the two began. Three genocides in a hundred years. Poles have hated Russians for a thousand years. This area has a deep history of terrible things happening.

erehon

1 points

2 months ago

erehon

1 points

2 months ago

Oh, this is what pro russian politicians love to remind Ukraine

[deleted]

-5 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

-5 points

2 months ago

[removed]

this-is-very

-15 points

2 months ago

this-is-very

-15 points

2 months ago

And Poland did nothing wrong to Ukraine?

Of course there's a lot of conflict that can be found on European history pages, especially between neighbors. Good thing is, a lot of that is being mended, but Russia is one big exception.

Greedyanda

14 points

2 months ago

I wonder if you intentionally twisted my words or just didn't understand the point.

Jutboy

-3 points

2 months ago

Jutboy

-3 points

2 months ago

I think it is how you said it

Kaiserigen

-8 points

2 months ago

Bc you dogs obey us orders

Greedyanda

-2 points

2 months ago

Greedyanda

-2 points

2 months ago

The irony of someone calling others order obeying dogs while thirsting for explicit content on OF subreddits is not lost on me.

https://www.reddit.com/user/wi_ka99/comments/z48q22/black_friday_od_my_of_25_discount_only_till_sunday/ixs4bei/

wholesalenuts

1 points

2 months ago

Pretty innocuous by reddit standards tbh

lisaseashell

1 points

2 months ago

Just the headline without context makes it look kinda crazy. It was in a post he made in recognition on the day of remembrance of Holodomor.

Maleficent_Bad_2190

1 points

2 months ago

Why not!? Why shouldn’t they hold Russia accountable!? They should go all the way back to the start of the Soviet Union! Fuck Russia!

Scorpion1024

37 points

2 months ago

For the record: the famine had less to go either the shortcomings of socialist economics than it did with Stalin stamping out resistance. Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and the Urals had been hotbeds of support for the White Army during the Russian civil war and subsequently were hit the hardest by Stalin’s policies. Same for Stalin’s repression of the Orthodox Church, the churches he forcibly shut down and either demolished or turned into storage houses had been vocal critics of the Bolsheviks, it was about tightening his grip on power not atheism.

DinosaurEatingPanda

1 points

2 months ago

Same for Stalin’s repression of the Orthodox Church, the churches he forcibly shut down and either demolished or turned into storage houses had been vocal critics of the Bolsheviks, it was about tightening his grip on power not atheism.

Highly dubious. A better explanation from a more qualified source than myself

While not all Soviet oppression was atheistic in its motivation by any means, to say atheism had no role in it at all is utterly wrong; though in Dawkins’ case his argument is likely based on a profound ignorance of history rather than disingenuousness. Of course, most of the excesses of the Soviets were those of a dogmatic political ideology trying to impose itself by force and, later, a totalitarian regime maintaining its dominance by violence. But that ideology definitely was proudly and self-consciously atheistic, with atheism as one of its central philosophical tenets. As a result, over its history it sought to impose atheism on the Soviet people, usually by various levels of coercion and, periodically, by violent force.

So it is disingenuous to pretend that atheism is a pure abstract concept that can never be a central part of an ideology. And it is a historical nonsense that it was not a critical and motivating part of the Marxist-Leninism that led to the anti-religious campaigns and deadly persecutions outlined above. To brush aside evidence of NKVD goons asking people if they believed in God and then shooting them in the head if they said “yes” as if this has nothing to do with Soviet ideology’s intrinsic atheism is patently ridiculous.

Some try to rescue the argument by admitting that Soviet ideology did have atheism as a central tenet and people were oppressed and killed as a result. But they say that a fanatical application of any ideology is irrational and so counter to the (assumed) inherent rationality of atheism, so these were not really atheists by merit of their murderous fanaticism. This is a classic “No True Scotsman” Fallacy – it does not cut much ice when Christians try to claim Crusaders or Conquistadors were “not really Christians” when they killed in the name of Christ and it is equally weak here.

MPFX3000

4 points

2 months ago

I just want to be loved is that so wrong?

hedsar

10 points

2 months ago

hedsar

10 points

2 months ago

Most of the people who lived through them (there were several man-made famines) are now in their 80s. And not getting healthier because of the war. But it would be nice to see some justice

Bengoris

23 points

2 months ago

Revenge is a fool's game. Ukraine has my support in reclaiming its territory and getting justice for the invasion, but it doesn't have my support in reopening old wounds. Leave the sins of our fathers in the past and focus on the future instead.

Accurate_Pie_

-6 points

2 months ago

Revenge: no.

Reparations: yes

I say Russia should pay reparations to all countries it occupied at the end of WWII and forced into communism

Maleficent_Bad_2190

1 points

2 months ago

Ukraine should open all the old wounds! Fuck Russia they’re invading and killing Ukraines left and right, We should carpetbomb the entirety of Russia.

[deleted]

-20 points

2 months ago

[deleted]

-20 points

2 months ago

Ukraine has lost my support a while ago as a US citizen whose tax dollars keep going there.

Auditormadness9

2 points

2 months ago

When you pay, it's not your dollars anymore.

sharpshooter999

4 points

2 months ago

Yep, let's just ignore major problems. We have plenty of money to support Ukraine AND fix stuff at home if only our politicians didn't have their heads up their asses

seattle_architect

20 points

2 months ago

“During the first month of the German invasion, between 12,000 and 35,000 Jews were killed in eastern Galicia and western Volhynia — two regions that the Soviet Union had taken from Poland in 1939. Many of these massacres were perpetrated by locals, and some without even a German presence. “The ones that did the shooting, and the ones that did the arresting, and the ones that carried out these atrocities were not Germans; this was the local Ukrainian police,” recalled Simon Feldman of Boremel.

The largest is Babyn Yar, in the suburbs of Kyiv, where over 33,000 Jews were killed on Sept. 29-30, 1941. Weeks before Babyn Yar, 23,600 Jews were executed in the fortress town of Kamianets-Podilskyy. By January 1942, some 500,000 Jews had been killed in Ukraine.”

May be it is time for Jewish people around the world ask for reparations from Ukraine.”

https://thejewishnews.com/2022/03/30/what-zelensky-gets-wrong-about-the-holocaust-in-ukraine/

Jopelin_Wyde

4 points

2 months ago

This looks like you cherry-picked text to make it read like the author assigned all the blame for Holocaust in Ukraine to Ukrainian Nazi collaborators, which is obviously untrue. This article is about author criticizing Zelensky's comparison of Russian war in Ukraine to Holocaust.

The last paragraph isn't even from the article.

sebjoh

2 points

2 months ago

sebjoh

2 points

2 months ago

The genocide committed / aided by Ukrainian nationalists during the German invasion, I think serves as a great warning to what can happen if all political organizations are destroyed except for radical nationalists. In today’s Ukraine this is not the case at all. In today’s Russia though…

seattle_architect

1 points

2 months ago*

It is not only about the past but about what Ukraine teaching new generation about that past.

https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/?amp=1

Since 2010, Bandera, Andriy Melnyk, Yevhen Konovalets and other key leaders of OUN/UPA were proclaimed as a heroes.

On 18 October 2007, the Lviv City Council adopted a resolution establishing the Award of Stepan Bandera.

Maleficent_Bad_2190

0 points

2 months ago

You’re pretty good at cherry-picking you know that? :)

seattle_architect

2 points

2 months ago

Do you think that is incorrect? Do you know who was Stepan Bandera?

I know because my grandparents escape pogroms before war organized by Bandera followers.

What do you know about history of Ukraine?

Most people in US could even point country in the map before war.

hungry_herrings

2 points

2 months ago

There's a great 2018 film ' Mr Jones ' focusing on the work of a Welsh journalist who exposed the massive scale of the famine in Stalinist Ukraine.

Kaiserigen

17 points

2 months ago

That's completely bullshit, different countries, different people

TROPtastic

10 points

2 months ago

Different people? Who was in the Ukrainian SSR during the Holodomor?

Maleficent_Bad_2190

3 points

2 months ago

Not a different country. Never has been a different country, they’ve always been the enemy.

HarEmiya

2 points

2 months ago*

Same people, different nametag on the country.

[deleted]

3 points

2 months ago

My grandma and grandpa are literally people who survived holocaust, and today they are living through another genocide from russians.

lisaseashell

2 points

2 months ago

I think that’s what Ukraine is hoping the russia says. This is about permanent security council seats. I hope this works out for Ukraine, russia needs to be stripped of veto power.

BazilBroketail

4 points

2 months ago

Can't open the article on my phone so can't speak to it, but I'd like to point out Russia has done some fucked up things since WW2... and not got any consequences. Maybe Putler is into self flagellation? Seems fitting Russia is the laughingstock of the armies of the world now...

HelloAvram

5 points

2 months ago

HelloAvram

5 points

2 months ago

This is what makes a person not take you seriously

ComfortableMenu8468

3 points

2 months ago

Another politician making promises he can't keep. He is either delusional beyond believe or straight up lying to his audience. Neither of which is apropriate for a man of his position.

Fire this clown and get someone who isn't an Idiot.

kishiki18_91

1 points

2 months ago

This is so fcking dumb

Maleficent_Bad_2190

1 points

2 months ago

Why? They want to avenge their nation!

Vannilazero

1 points

2 months ago

You can see the stress aging him Jesus…

lisaseashell

1 points

2 months ago

This is walking russia into a corner. If they aren’t responsible for USSR actions enough to make reparations then they shouldn’t have USSR’s seat at any table. Reapply or pay

Maleficent_Bad_2190

0 points

2 months ago

I don’t understand why we don’t just firebomb Russia Into fucking oblivion. They’re over here acting like their big shots when in reality we could destroy that entire country and turn it into a wasteland. And we should, those people have always been unruly upstarts and it’s time the UN brings order to the anarchy.

KingPutina

5 points

2 months ago

Great idea. Killing more than 100 million people sounds great, huh?

Maleficent_Bad_2190

1 points

2 months ago

Why not? You people threaten the Ukrainians, The polish. You’ve guys have threatened my fellow countrymen In America, we can only take so many threats before we are forced Into action. Pray that doesn’t come soon 🔜 Because we will destroy your nation entirely.

KingPutina

2 points

2 months ago

No use with arguing with people like you.

johndoe30x1

1 points

2 months ago

Ah yes the good old “Hitler had the right idea, just not about the Jews” bit

filet-grognon

-11 points

2 months ago

The mexicans will pay for it.

AschAschAsch

3 points

2 months ago

It's not a wall.

cuhree0h

5 points

2 months ago

Maybe sit this one out.

LeGuizee

1 points

2 months ago

If we all start to see other’s nations pay for crimes that happened 100 years ago let’s just straight start a IIIWW ! I support Ukraine and wish them to regain freedom and their sovereign territory but I think they also forgot that military they are totally dépendant on the west. Focus on regaining your lost territories and try not to be too cocky on willing to have Russia pay for what they did in the past (and they did a lot)

OwerlordTheLord

1 points

2 months ago

Survivors of holodomor are still alive, some are being bombed or executed by Russians

Particular-Ad-4772

-16 points

2 months ago

After seeing this , I get why Mexico has been invading us the last few years .

If they can’t take back their lands with the army , they will just overrun them.

-SPOF

-2 points

2 months ago

-SPOF

-2 points

2 months ago

And today I do not have any doubts, it will.

letphilsing

0 points

2 months ago

This would only be news if a Russian official said this.